Shooting at Virginia Tech university

[Comrade K]

Well, I stand somewhere in the middle here. Recently, our (Canadian) government brought in a law that all rifles needed to registered now. Naturally, people with guns were not happy (myself included). This registry won't prevent criminals from acquiring guns illegally, as most of the guns used to commit crimes like drive-bys and robberies etc. are smuggled from the States, so only the legal gun owner pays. On the other side, people who just snap aren't going to care whether the gun is registered or not, Buddy Asshole will still shoot his Girlfriend either way. So stupid laws like that accomplish nothing, even all the cops I've talked to think it's idiotic.

As the saying goes, Guns don't kill people, people kill people, and I really believe that.
For example, Roo, I bet if suddenly Britain changed it's gun laws, and allowed people to possess handguns, and even assault rifles, and have them at home or carry them, there still wouldn't be the kind of crimes that occur in the US. It's the culture, not the laws I think. Most Britons probably still wouldn't even feel the need to buy a gun in that case. I agree with jent about how America is full of fear, and I think that's one of the driving forces behind all the violence that occurs there. Like I said in an earlier post, around 80% of households here contain guns, but there are few guncrimes, I do recall one when a guy shot his girlfriend and then himself a couple years ago. So, one. Around here though, guns aren't for protection, they're for recreation, there's none of this fear. People who own guns don't carry them around in case, they take them out hunting or plinking, then lock em' back up. The only time using firearms for self-defense comes up here is when you're deep in the bush, and the threat isn't other people in there, it's bears.

Anyway, what I'm trying to say is this:
The Ultimate Problem to confront is the will of people to kill each other, not whether or not actually going through with it is convenient.

[jent]

Ahh, I love a good debate.
While it's true that even if you banned guns, people would find other lethal weapons, I cannot think of any weapon more dangerous than a gun.

List of weapons I can think of now:
Homemade Napalm
Fertilizer Bombs (can be quite larger in size)
Shrapnel Grenades (you could make them small and easy to deploy with nails as shrapnel)
Chemical Grenades (similar to napalm except instead of fire it is chemical burns)
Crossbow (can be equally precise although slower to reload)
Flame Thrower (can also be easily built at home)

Personally I rather get shot with a gun than die by any of those methods.....if you want to kill you will kill....period

[baloki]

So the killer made a video of himself inbetween the killings and sent it to CNN? *shakes his head*

Clips of the video can be seen at: http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/avdb/news/w ... 6x9_nb.asx

[Tom Flapwell]

As the saying goes, Guns don't kill people, people kill people, and I really believe that.

I've heard that misfires are pretty frequent. Maybe not among the trained, but until they mandate that all gun owners be trained, this will be enough to refute the saying.

if you want to kill you will kill....period

When people say that, I get the impression they haven't been listening. If you want to kill, you will try to kill. No weapon is more reliable for that objective than a gun.

[Mr. Neign]

jent was saying something that i had been thinking about earlier, and now you are occasionally hitting near the idea again

at the points the states are now, with the thriving drug trade and black market, if we ban guns, we wont force people to find alternate methods of killing, we will force the ones that use legal sources to go to an alternate source (black market) to purchase firearms.

i was watching something about the drug trade during the 90's, some FBI covert operation that was originally talking to columbian drug smugglers found itself speaking to a representative from the russian mob, who was offering all sorts of weapons from an ak-47 to a nuclear warhead.

due to the way america is from this, safety means carrying a concealed handgun on you in the cities with drug problems and being trained in firing it because if you dont, it is only a matter of time untill you are thrust into a dangerous situation and without a gun, you are unprepared to fight for your life. In the places worst effected by the ilegal trade, gun ownership is survival, not an enjoyable pastime.

many arguments can be made of why we even got this far, but my point is that since american control over its borders is so horrible, drugs/guns/etc. are smuggled in with ease and gun control will not stop the black market trade from giving guns to people who want to kill.

our true target to curb gun crimes in the US should be the black market and the borders, not the legal sources of firearms.

[nickspoon]

List of weapons I can think of now:
Homemade Napalm
Fertilizer Bombs (can be quite larger in size)
Shrapnel Grenades (you could make them small and easy to deploy with nails as shrapnel)
Chemical Grenades (similar to napalm except instead of fire it is chemical burns)
Crossbow (can be equally precise although slower to reload)
Flame Thrower (can also be easily built at home)

Personally I rather get shot with a gun than die by any of those methods.....if you want to kill you will kill....period

I doubt any of the weapons you listed are as concealable or efficient in killing as a gun. I mean, you could easily *stab* someone, but it's difficult to do that without meeting a lot of resistance.

our true target to curb gun crimes in the US should be the black market and the borders, not the legal sources of firearms.

No use neutralising the black market if the white market is still distributing firearms. You have to take both.

[Steve the Pocket]

at the points the states are now, with the thriving drug trade and black market, if we ban guns, we wont force people to find alternate methods of killing, we will force the ones that use legal sources to go to an alternate source (black market) to purchase firearms.

i was watching something about the drug trade during the 90's, some FBI covert operation that was originally talking to columbian drug smugglers found itself speaking to a representative from the russian mob, who was offering all sorts of weapons from an ak-47 to a nuclear warhead.

That's a worthy point. After all, just look how well our bans on drugs have done curtailing drug trafficking. Or for that matter, Prohibition did with alcohol. Hint: not very. In fact, both made violent crime worse. Imagine how much worse it would be if the thing being banned was a violent weapon itself.

That said, I don't know what accounts for Britain's gun ban working so well. But I'm starting to suspect there's something fundamentally different (read: better) about the overall culture over there. I have the same suspicions about Canada.

[Tom Flapwell]

We have Brazil and the District of Columbia for examples of gun bans not working, yet Australia seems to differ. Durn stats.

[The Donmeister]

Jent, the problem with all of your weapons is that they have to be made. Most people don't know how to detonate ANFO, or make a crossbow, and even fewer know how to use these effectively as weapons. And with any explosive, especially when used by an untrained person, there's quite a large chance of the killer injuring himself aswell. With a gun however, it's merely point and squeeze. Sure, SOME people would make their own grenades, but most wouldn't, and stopping most killing sprees is still better than stopping none of them.

It's been said before, that the culture is just as important as the availability of the weapons. However equally, availability is just as important as culture, although it's easier to change. While banning guns wouldn't fix the problem, it would lessen it, and if combined with tighter border control, and faster responses to gun crimes, I think it would make a big difference.

[The Donmeister]

I don't know what accounts for Britain's gun ban working so well. But I'm starting to suspect there's something fundamentally different (read: better) about the overall culture over there. I have the same suspicions about Canada.

You're absolutely right. But the problem is, we don't know WHAT'S different, and even if we did, how would we change it?

[jent]

Not a whole lot to add on this post....

Jent, the problem with all of your weapons is that they have to be made. Most people don't know how to detonate ANFO, or make a crossbow, and even fewer know how to use these effectively as weapons. And with any explosive, especially when used by an untrained person, there's quite a large chance of the killer injuring himself aswell.

Indeed but everyone is capable of learning. Finding info on this kind of stuff is not hard. As far as the killer injuring or killing himself, i find this point moot because all massive gun shootouts I can think of were suicide runs with clear indications that the gunner had no intention of escaping alive. So who cares if you die when your planing to die?

I don't know what accounts for Britain's gun ban working so well. But I'm starting to suspect there's something fundamentally different (read: better) about the overall culture over there. I have the same suspicions about Canada.

You're absolutely right. But the problem is, we don't know WHAT'S different, and even if we did, how would we change it?

This is true and everyone has there own theroies but I believe it is the way the media and goverment have gripped the american public with fear.

at the points the states are now, with the thriving drug trade and black market, if we ban guns, we wont force people to find alternate methods of killing, we will force the ones that use legal sources to go to an alternate source (black market) to purchase firearms.

You got a huge part of my argument. First of all I think were at a point where it would just create a massive black market. I pointed out how it is actually easier for me to get illegal things than legal things. For example if I want booze on sunday there is nothing I can do (illegal to sell booze on weekends). But if I want pot I can get an 8er 24/7 with just a phone call. Sometimes making the item illegal makes the problem worse because if your trading in illegal goods no rules apply.

[Mr. Neign]

No use neutralising the black market if the white market is still distributing firearms. You have to take both

you cant take the 'white market' for guns in america without killing the second amendment

as i said earlier, it may be better if we had the second amendment interpreted directly as 'the right to form armed and well regulated militias' and have the firearms organizations (NRA, etc.) become the above mentioned militias. We would have much more control of the legal firearms, without taking away the right to own firearms, keeping both sides somewhat happy

but like comrade said, the majority of the criminals involved in gun crimes use the black market for their source because of legal problems like gun registration, etc. so you still have to address that problem

You're absolutely right. But the problem is, we don't know WHAT'S different, and even if we did, how would we change it?

it would be a very worthwhile idea to research into that. being able to discover or even fix the root problems in a culture or society would be far more effective than simply patching up the symptoms as we do now

[The Donmeister]

You're absolutely right. But the problem is, we don't know WHAT'S different, and even if we did, how would we change it?

it would be a very worthwhile idea to research into that. being able to discover or even fix the root problems in a culture or society would be far more effective than simply patching up the symptoms as we do now

The problem is that even if we knew what the root problem was, you couldn't fix it. Guns have been part of American culture since day one, and it'd be almost impossible to change that now.

Indeed but everyone is capable of learning. Finding info on this kind of stuff is not hard. As far as the killer injuring or killing himself, i find this point moot because all massive gun shootouts I can think of were suicide runs with clear indications that the gunner had no intention of escaping alive. So who cares if you die when your planing to die?

But if the killer injures himself with the first blast, he won't be able to injure anyone else.

[Foxchild]

Personally I rather get shot with a gun than die by any of those methods.....if you want to kill you will kill....period

Exactly. If people are intent on it, they will find ways of taking as many people as possible, and frankly it's a lot easier than most people would like to believe. Mortality and how easy it is to die is not something people like to be reminded of.

The responsibility for this falls solely on the gunman; not the gun, not the arms dealer, not the bullets, not the blade of grass that cause the gunman to walk at a slower pace for half a step.

[Rooster]

I can think of four reasons why the gun ban worked here.

1 - People in the UK are generally TERRIFIED of guns. We've lived with threats of invasions, and with the IRA for the last 75 years. We seen first hand what war does, and have been living with that for years. France has no gun ban, but reletivly low guncrime. Same with Germany.

2 - We don't trust our government or media. The British as a nation are very skeptical, similar to the Australians and New Zealanders. If we see a crime report we generally tend to think "ah well, that's (insert place) for you."

3 - Our police aren't armed. Some people can't understand this, that we have little in the way of organised crime when our police carry little more than a big stick. Simplest reason I can give is that we respect our police, and it's BECAUSE they're not armed that we don't veiw them as threats.

4 - We don't glorify crime and violence. Well sure, some films (the long good friday, snatch, lock stock) do glorify crime in the UK, but those films are copies of US-style films. For example, I can't imagine a UK games company having invented the GTA series.

Again though, I can only vouch for my country, I have no idea other than what I see on TV and hear from you lot about what the USA is actually like.

Also by the same note on the "guns don't kill people" theory, I still think that things like firearms should be tightly controlled. I mean, you could use the same argument for keeping handguns as you could for legalising heroin. Everyone knows it pretty much = death, so why not make it legal? That way the dealers can't charge £? for it, people won't have to sell their stuff and steal to fund it, and crime would go down.

(obviously, I'm not suggesting we actually legalise heroin, that'd just be spasticated.)