Tails and O&M

Zylo · Postby **Zylo** » Mon Feb 23, 2004 3:18 am

I used Tails whenever possible. And his crouching sprite, if I remember correctly, was cute as heck.

Gizensha · Postby **Gizensha** » Mon Feb 23, 2004 8:22 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' ><tr><td class='quotetop'>Quote: (iyestorm @ Feb 22 2004, 11:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quotebody'> y'know, I think someone needs to make a new version in the old style. Like MegamanX, Sonic is not suited for 3D. of course, I have to admit, sonic handles 3D better than Megaman X, but not much. WHEN WILL THE BUTCHERING END?!?!?!?!?!?!  </td></tr></table>  Eh. While Sonic certainly didn't manage as smooth a conversion from 2d to 3d as Mario, sonic does work in 3d. Kinda. The trouble with SA and SA2 is that they were really experimental with multiple types of play styles, etc. If you look at Sonic's (and Shadow's in the case of SA2) levels you'll see that sonic does work in 3d, just not quite as easially as Mario does. And they deserve to die painfully for Big's game in SA. Sonic Heroes, of course, is the best 3d sonic game I've played. Dunno how they got the three characters at once system to work as well as they did, but they pulled it off successfully. Hear that in the ps2 version at least there's a way of getting Tails to call either Sonic or Knuckles (or both) a moron if you can get to a situation when you only have Tails there, which is, um, odd. And if you want traditional 2d sonic action, there's always the GBA titles <img src='http://definecynical.mancubus.net/forum ... /happy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='happy.gif' />

Henohenomoheji · Postby **Henohenomoheji** » Mon Feb 23, 2004 12:40 pm

I just assumed they butchered those too.

Gizensha · Postby **Gizensha** » Mon Feb 23, 2004 1:18 pm

Nah. Sonic Advance 2 is the only one of them I've played, of course, but the levels are some of the largest I've seen in a 2d sonic game and each character plays completely differently while not having much differences in control mechanics. Oh, and there's still the 10 minute time limit thing, but unlike before where in most zones that was simply a formality, I think the shortest act in the thing takes 3 minutes or so. Of course, the bosses move in it, which is annoying. All the bosses except the end are you chasing it, which is fine for one or two bosses in a game, but when there are seven of them it kinda wears a little thin towards the end. Final boss (without all emeralds, dunno if there's a hidden zone with all emeralds) is essentially an easy version of Sonic 2's final boss crossed with S&K's sonic path final boss (ignoring the all emeralds extra), which is nice and retro. Of course, Sonic Advance got it's bosses right, considering the final boss on sonic's story in that is the funnest sonic boss since Sonic 3's final boss. Which was more fun than difficult, it should be noted, but that might be because it's natural to compare it to S&K which was intended to be harder than S3 and S2 which was so long the difficulty curve naturally made the final boss one of the hardest in any sonic game ever.

Foxchild · Postby **Foxchild** » Mon Feb 23, 2004 3:23 pm

Yeah... they weren't "Butchered", actually I really enjoyed them both (sa + sa2), but I will say that they could ahve done a better job programing colision detection. There are certain spots where you can litterally just fall through and die. Granted, I looked over these problems quite easily. How is Sonic Heroes? I've heared mixed things....

Gizensha · Postby **Gizensha** » Mon Feb 23, 2004 5:59 pm

Considering it innovates the action game scene by having multiple antagonists controlled 'simultainiously' (more 'ai and change which of the three you control and the way the ai behaves'), and introduces the very basics of rpg mechanics (level ups. Lose em when you die or go to the next level, and their are only three level ups per character, but it's a rather nice feature, and the enemies essentially have hp <img src='http://definecynical.mancubus.net/forum ... /blink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='blink.gif' />) it's supprisingly traditional. At the core of the levels essentially lies a Two acts and a boss stage per zone, which is the current 2d standard. Although this is rather dressed up, and the stages are done as seperate stages with different names, plus a boss stage at the end, but the group of three is themed and it's easy to see how one follows on from the last. Each team tackles the same levels, but each from a different angle, with Team Rose having an easy level, team Sonic having a full length speed based level, and team Dark having a full length combat based level. Team Chaotix have odd sections of the levels, whereas Team Rose is a part of team sonic/team dark, team Chaotix has a more 'pick and choose' idea, and mission based levels, such as 'find ten hermit crabs' or 'defeat all 72 robots' or 'collect 200 rings'. So it's basically a nicely implemented and more creative version of the role Knuckles took in the Sonic Adventure series, allbeit without the radar. The seven emeralds are back into their traditional role, and are obtained via a special stage which appears to be bassed on Sonic 2's special stage, only changed so that it's fairly fun (basically the opposite of what Sonic 3D Blast did with it O_o;), but only in the even numbered stages. In the odd numbered stages, you enter a bonus stage identical to the special stage only the goal is to get to the end within the time limit which is extended by collecting the pods, instead of catching the emerald before the emerald gets to the end, and is played for lives. And I'd estimate them to be slightly harder than Sonic Advance 2's special stages due to it being harder to memorise a solution. They're shared between the teams. Unfortunately, we're still yet to see Super Sonic in normal gameplay in a 3d sonic game, but we appear to have the traditional 'hidden game parts only availiable after getting all seven chaos emeralds'. The emblems are back, this time 120 of them, all obtained through standard gameplay (the story mode and a single extra mission for each area), and are used to unlock extra multiplayer modes, of which you start with a single mode and gain a new one each time. The obvious race stages are there, as well as team battles, but the one you get for 40 emblems, I think, took me by supprise. A multiplayer competitive version of the special stage. The bosses come in three flavours. Eggman (usually a great big flying machine, once a mecha knight (instead of a mecha form of himself, rather supprising really)), inter-team battles, and robot storms. The latter is basically where you fight a load of robots in a row, and in a fairly small circular arena. It's similar to a sonicised robotron, in a way (from my understanding of robotron being an 'against the odds fight against a series of hoards of enemies, sadly not from actual experience of the game). The soundtrack's sweet. Think the sountrack to the sonic levels of the adventure series and you're not far off. The teams all have their own themes (shame they didn't also put in character themes, but when you have twelve characters that's forgivable, I guess), which are all unique, but most are in a similar style. Other than team Rose's which is a lot more poppy than the others. As one review program put it, it's a very air-guitary soundtrack, which is great if you like that sort of thing, and useless if you don't. I hear they screwed Chaotix from what they were in their Genesis debut, but the excuse Sonic Team are using is that they wanted new characters, had some character models that would fit the bill for power, flight and speed and reinvented them into what they were looking for, which is fair enough considering the only chaotix character popular enough to have a fan base isn't even in it. Personally, I love it, but their are a couple of negatives, and ignoring the emeralds and emblems it takes about 17 or 18 hours to complete, but it's not really complete without the emeralds. Course, there are people who don't, but personally I feel that they either dislike the 3d sonic, or feel that the multiple character idea's a gimmik.

Miles E Traysandor · Postby **Miles E Traysandor** » Mon Feb 23, 2004 6:15 pm

I didn't really like Sonic Advance 2 because I could never find all 7 of the emblems (or whatever they were called) required to have access to the special zones where the Emeralds were contained in any of the stages in the game... I liked the old 50-rings-or-more system of the old days... another idea to make the stages a bit harder is to use the rings you have as a timer (the more rings you have the more time you'll get to complete the stage and find the Emerald)... However Sonic Adventure and SA2 were very cool... I likes SA1 a little better because you could play Tails by himself and fly around... though his stages were easily conquered once mastered (Trust me, I've smoked Sonic and Eggman many times in the respective levels by a longshot)

Gizensha · Postby **Gizensha** » Mon Feb 23, 2004 6:45 pm

Point, that was my biggest grief with Sonic Advance 2, not only is it the hardest access method to special stages ever in a sonic game I've played, but the special stages are bad once you get into them. (think a combination of Sonic 2 and Sonic 3 but without the grid or the spheres. Or the bombs. Oh, and on a time limit. True, hard to imagine <img src='http://definecynical.mancubus.net/forum ... /blink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='blink.gif' />) Still... The music in them's good (sonic one's star light zone music <img src='http://definecynical.mancubus.net/forum ... /smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' />), and if you really want to get into them, I highly recomend gamefaqs. (For the record - I normally don't use walkthroughs, I occasionally consult a faq for something like this, or boss strategies if I really get stuck, though)

Henohenomoheji · Postby **Henohenomoheji** » Mon Feb 23, 2004 9:40 pm

when I said "someone needs to make a new one in the old style", I was sorta leaning toward what <a href='http://www.maelstormm.com/collections/m ... ctions.htm' target='_blank'>this guy</a> did with megaman. However, If I said that, It would blow this off topic. So, I'm going to say "You guys sound convincing so I guess I'll check out some game faqs." If only I could program flash.

norsenerd · Postby **norsenerd** » Mon Feb 23, 2004 11:44 pm

I liked the special stages in Sonic 2 and 3. I could never beat anmore then two in sonic 2 however. Also I didn't like how it took all of your rings when you went into one. I usulay didn't in sonic 2. I wish that sega woudl put out their PC pack (with the early genisis gasmes on it) in a version that didn't requre real player. Who ever makes that is evil. So much spam.

Henohenomoheji · Postby **Henohenomoheji** » Tue Feb 24, 2004 12:00 am

Anyone who hasn't played S3&K want me to list the different characters strengths and weaknesses? I feel the strangest need to all of a sudden. ...which is weird, because I haven't played in years, and I can still remember. That's the mark of a great game.

Gizensha · Postby **Gizensha** » Tue Feb 24, 2004 12:37 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' ><tr><td class='quotetop'>Quote: (norsenerd @ Feb 23 2004, 11:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quotebody'> I liked the special stages in Sonic 2 and 3. I could never beat anmore then two in sonic 2 however. Also I didn't like how it took all of your rings when you went into one.  </td></tr></table>  Ah. But don't forget that sonic 2 was a very buggy game. I've died from dash attacking the shark things in that <img src='http://definecynical.mancubus.net/forum ... lleyes.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='rolleyes.gif' /> They fixed up all the implementation issues in sonic 3 for the star-ring bonus stages, though. Essentially, sonic 2 treated it how it would treat a loss of life. If you ever change your mind, incidently, and decide to do the sonic 2 special stages, do not go into the final star-post in mystic cave zone, I think it is. You can't get back up and there are no rings between it and the boss, which is really annoying if the boss kills you. "Riiiight. I couldn't do this with a shield and 30 rings, and you expect me to do it with nothing?" If you're doing it two-player co-op, it's easier than one player, and it's easier one player if you don't have a sonic and tails game. Also, the official guide book for it is supprisingly useful on the subject. Course, I got the thing for the level select and maps (after beating the game other than the seventh emerald) And to iyestorm - please do so. Don't remember the actual graphs from flicking through the strategy guide in woollies but, if you mean the multiplayer graphs isn't it something like: Speed - Sonic, Knuckles, Tails. Jump - Tails, Knuckles, Sonic. ? ((The former order is something I recited to a load of people who mistakenly thaught Knuckles was faster than Sonic, but please, I'm interested in your version. I seem to remember a third graph, for example, and you might mean 'pros/cons of playing the characters' rather than 'multiplayer stats'))

norsenerd · Postby **norsenerd** » Tue Feb 24, 2004 1:16 am

I think Knuckles had a bad jump. To compensate for his glide or whatever. And was slow. Basicly a brute. I didn't like him. But I can beat the mystic cave boss without getting hit once. I've done it a few times before. It was fun. (firt try to). That incadently <a href='http://www.vgmusic.com/music/console/se ... mystic.mid' target='_blank'>zone</a> has the best vedio game music ever in my opinon. <a href='http://www.vgmusic.com/music/console/se ... n2hill.mid' target='_blank'>Hill Top zone</a> was goosd as well.

Henohenomoheji · Postby **Henohenomoheji** » Tue Feb 24, 2004 1:35 am

very well, I shall. these stats, however, are based on my personal observances and not a stragety guide. again, you are correct, I meant story mode, not multiplayer. Also, a bunch of these could be debated whether they're pros or cons (ie:insta shield) Sonic: Pros: the fastest character, can do different moves based on shields, has the most story stages, gets to fight knuckles*, gets tails as a sidekick. Cons: secondary move is insta-shield** (well, it's not that crappy, but compared to everyone elses moves), sucks to play him alone; especially in some areas where you need tails. Tails: Pros: highest jumper (i think, moot point because...), he can fly/swim for a limited amount of time, has the best transformation** (just beats sonic by a hair. technically, sonic's is faster, but...), when flying, if you angle it just right, you can reflect some shots (practice!), has an easier storyline**, is smaller so a tiny bit harder to hit, and, apparently, has the cutest crouch sprite (compared to the other two, he has cuter sprites overall). [is pretty much invincible, can only be stunned for the hurt animation if hit, if dies or lost just comes back on screen, can be played by 2p] Cons: not as many story stages (ie: doomsday), can't transform until all super emeralds have been collected (I think), and for some reason, I just can't concentrate as well when I play as him. I wonder why. Knuckles(fave): Pros: glide move, climb walls, different levels (somewhat), (not sure, but I think his glide attack does more damage than a jump), funniest balance loss sprite, Cons: absolute worst jumper, absolute worst transformation (don't bother getting the super emeralds for this guy), said levels are usually harder**, does not get the uber tails as a sidekick, and does not get to lay the smackdown on sonic*. *:I'm really a fan of "rival battles". It is my personal opinion that they made the fight against knuckles way too easy. in fact, the only time I think anybody has done it even remotely right is in MMX5-6, X vs Zero and SA2 (but the music was better in SA1 for it). Therefore, I can conclude that it's harder than it looks and they know something I don't, but I really wish they would improve on that **: debateable whether good/bad or true/false ***: just kidding, there is no triple astrix.

Dr. Dos · Postby **Dr. Dos** » Tue Feb 24, 2004 3:17 am

<img src='http://zzt3.org/~Dr_Dos/Tailscrouch.JPG' border='0' alt='user posted image' /> That is an excellent sprite.

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