Zen

Discuss everything related to Ozy and Millie.
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Tavis
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Postby Tavis » Mon Oct 27, 2003 9:35 pm

DC has admitted to not really understanding <br><a href='http://www.ozyandmillie.org/2003/om20031027.html' target='_blank'>Zen</a> despite his repeated use of it in his comics. What is your take on this notion? Could DC actually know more Zen than anyone since he already thinks he does NOT understand it, or am I just being stupid? Either way, I figure he is easily comparable to Llewellyn in the fact that we honestly can't tell when he's making stuff up or not.<br><br>Since this is spurred by the current day's comic, I decided to move it to the O&M General Discussion.

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Postby Sabre » Mon Oct 27, 2003 9:42 pm

I looked it up once when I was bored in english. Its seems to be a kind of method to learn somthing. An intense study of one simple thing to learn it and imprint it into your mind.

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bronte
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Postby bronte » Mon Oct 27, 2003 10:01 pm

Well, I got this from Encarta...<br><br><!--QuoteBegin--> <table border='0' align='center' width='95%' ><tr><td class='quotetop'><b>Quote:</b> </td></tr><tr><td class='quotebody'> Zen or Chan, Buddhist school that developed in China and later in Japan as the result of a fusion between the Mahayana form of Buddhism originating in India and the Chinese philosophy of Daoism. Zen and Chan designate a state of mind roughly equivalent to contemplation or meditation, although without the static and passive sense that these words sometimes convey. Zen denotes specifically the state of consciousness of a Buddha, one whose mind is free from the assumption that the distinct individuality of oneself and other things is real. All schools of Buddhism hold that separate things exist only in relation to one another; this relativity of individuals is called their voidness or sunyata, which means not that the world is truly nothing but that nature cannot be grasped by any system of fixed definition or classification. Reality is the suchness (Pali, tathata) of nature, or the world just as it is apart from any specific thoughts about it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table> <!--QuoteEEnd--><br><br>I think I like the O&M version, it's easier to understand <!--emo&:P--><img src='http://definecynical.mancubus.net/forum ... tongue.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tongue.gif' /><!--endemo--><br><br><!--QuoteBegin--> <table border='0' align='center' width='95%' ><tr><td class='quotetop'><b>Quote:</b> </td></tr><tr><td class='quotebody'> Zen abandons both theorizing and systems of spiritual exercise and communicates its vision of truth by a method known as direct pointing. Its exponents answer all philosophic or religious questions by nonsymbolic words or actions; the answer is the action just as it is, and not what it represents. Typical is the reply of the Zen master Yaoshan, who, on being asked What is the Way [of Zen]? answered, A cloud in the sky and water in the jug! Zen students prepare themselves to be receptive to such answers by sitting in meditation (Japanese, za-zen) while they simply observe, without mental comment, whatever may be happening.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table> <!--QuoteEEnd--> <br><br>Well, Llewelyn certainly has this bit down.
LLEWELLYN: And surely you've noticed that a great deal of what I do is extremely strange.
-------
MILLIE: Note to self: Sarcasm is highly ineffective against stupid people

Seven

Postby Seven » Tue Oct 28, 2003 1:00 am

I don't think you need to fully understand Zen in order to achieve it, or demonstrate it to others.<br><br>It's like with a car - you don't need to understand all the processes of how it works in order to go zooming down the highway <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://definecynical.mancubus.net/forum ... s/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->

Zel-kun

Postby Zel-kun » Tue Oct 28, 2003 1:06 am

Agreed. Once you understand the basic logistics of a concept, practicing it and relaying it isn't a difficult task to master.

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Postby norsenerd » Tue Oct 28, 2003 5:50 pm

I don't know if the folowing is Zen but ti doese achieve the same rsults and is somethign I try and do:<br><br>1) Let the universe be its self. In other words don't wory about what you can't controll. Just let it be. Decide your actions acordingly. That is realy the onyl thing you can controll. Take the hadn that has been given you and work fro the best result. You can't controll what card you have but you can control how you use them. For example: I would rather it stop raining today. I like rain but I'm not in the mood. I don't complain that it's raining or try ang change it; I acept it and wear my rain coat. I try and control my actions not what's around me.<br><br>2) Thet the universe reveal itself to you. In other words be paitient. Don't try and create something that's not there and don't try and force something. Wait until the situatin presents itself to you. Be paitient and wait for the orpotunity to act. There is always and optimal time to do something just wait until that time arives.
Llewellyn for President 2008 <br><br><img><br><img>

Katala

Postby Katala » Thu Oct 30, 2003 8:07 am

Hooray for a college education - I took a class on Japanese religion a few years ago, and we talked about Zen a bit. Unfortunately, I remember very little of it...(or maybe we talked about nothingness, so there was nothing to remember? Okay, that's stretching it...) <br><br>I do seem to remember the main goal of Zen to be living just in the present moment - experiencing enlightenment though being completely alive and aware of the world as it is, without abstract thoughts getting in the way. To achieve that state you have to meditate and do menial chores and solve Zen riddles (<i>koans</i>) that have no answer and stuff like that. Which is where a lot of the popular notions of Zen come from, I think - the riddles about nothingness and the sound of one hand clapping and such. <br><br>On the other hand, I'm with bronte - the popular version is a lot easier! And why couldn't DC Simpson understand Zen through not understanding it? Makes about as much sense as a <i>koan</i>. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://definecynical.mancubus.net/forum ... s/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->

Crispy

Postby Crispy » Thu Oct 30, 2003 6:34 pm

Ok, I have been trying to understand the whole concept of understanding without understanding. Basicly the point is that sense dosen't make sense unless it dosen't make sense ... or its just a so complicated kind of sense that understading it can only be archieved by not understanding it? ... Am I making any sense here? <!--emo&:unsure:--><img src='http://definecynical.mancubus.net/forum ... unsure.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='unsure.gif' /><!--endemo--> ... Hmm, I don't think you're supposed to understand ... <!--emo&:rolleyes:--><img src='http://definecynical.mancubus.net/forum ... lleyes.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='rolleyes.gif' /><!--endemo-->

Random Drama Man

Postby Random Drama Man » Thu Oct 30, 2003 7:10 pm

Ah, Zen. Such a fun topic!<br><br>I'm taking a Hinduism & Buddhism class in college this term. Though we haven't covered Zen Buddhism yet, I have learned a fair amount about Buddhism in general. The idea that you cannot directly convey enlightenment is a prevalent particularly in Theravada, the traditional, nontheistic branch of Buddhism. I'd imagine Zen builds off that idea.<br><br>How would I describe Zen? I'd explain it by not explaining. <!--emo&:P--><img src='http://definecynical.mancubus.net/forum ... tongue.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tongue.gif' /><!--endemo--> (Sorry. Couldn't help myself.)

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Postby Muninn » Thu Oct 30, 2003 7:36 pm

<!--QuoteBegin--> <table border='0' align='center' width='95%' ><tr><td class='quotetop'><b>Quote:</b> </td></tr><tr><td class='quotebody'> Ok, I have been trying to understand the whole concept of understanding without understanding.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table> <!--QuoteEEnd--><br><br>If this is the case then isn't ignorance bliss? Or maybe i just don't have to bother understanding anything and it'll work out itself. Don't pay attention to me, i don't know what i'm saying here...so is this understanding?

Seven

Postby Seven » Thu Oct 30, 2003 8:14 pm

It's not so much an ignorant bliss than an acceptance that some things are the way they are and not worrying about not being able to change them.<br><br>Change what you can, accept what you cannot change. The comment about not wanting it to rain, but it is, so you just grab a raincoat - That's exactly it. You cannot always control your environment, but you can ALWAYS control how you react to it. Understanding and accepting that and learning to work with it is (imho) one of the most basic underlying principles of zen.<br><br><br>Understanding without understanding? I refer you back to the car analogy - you don't need to understand all the principles behind combustion in order to start your car's engine <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://definecynical.mancubus.net/forum ... s/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo--><br><br>Sometimes accepting that things happen in a certain way is all you need.<br><br>In this case, I could take the approach that some people simply understand, and others will just never get it. So in effect, explaining Zen to someone isn't actually going to help after you've gone past the initial descripton - people will either understand or don't - so once the explanation is made I should accept that some of you get it and some of you don't. <!--emo&:P--><img src='http://definecynical.mancubus.net/forum ... tongue.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tongue.gif' /><!--endemo--> (so, in that case, the fact I'm trying to deepen the explanation means I don't have as much Zen quality to my way of thinking as I'd like to believe.. hehe)

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Postby norsenerd » Fri Oct 31, 2003 2:06 am

<!--QuoteBegin--> <table border='0' align='center' width='95%' ><tr><td class='quotetop'><b>Quote:</b> </td></tr><tr><td class='quotebody'> explaining Zen to someone isn't actually going to help after you've gone past the initial descripton - people will either understand or don't - so once the explanation is made I should accept that some of you get it and some of you don't.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table> <!--QuoteEEnd--><br><br>The other option is thorugh years of training or studding. That can be cumbersome though.
Llewellyn for President 2008 <br><br><img><br><img>

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Postby Henohenomoheji » Fri Oct 31, 2003 2:32 am

*rides through board on a surf*<br><br>WHEEEHEEHEEHAAA!!!! <!--emo&:lol:--><img src='http://definecynical.mancubus.net/forum ... /laugh.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='laugh.gif' /><!--endemo--> <br><br><br>this is not spam, this is zen! WHOOOHOOO!!!!<br><br><br>wait... am i confusing zen with insanity again?<br><br>yes, doc fred, i wasnt insane when you said i was but now i am and in 20 minutes i wont be again.<br><br>you cant really blame me, its kinda hard to tell the difference b/w insanity and zen... <br><br>sorry if you think this is spam, it wasnt intended to be.
Miyo! Chikara no chizu!<br><br>Living proof that Ninja and Pirates can live together in peace, harmony, and fun at the expense of ye hapless townsfolk.<br><br>"<br>< e<br> -|-|-/ < <br>< e <br>_________/ <br>-------------------------<br><span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>Hey... On page 375 it says "Jeebus"...</span>

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Postby Burning Sheep Productions » Fri Oct 31, 2003 9:20 am

Isn't Zen basicly philosiphing(sp?)?<br>But made into a religion?
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Random Drama Man

Postby Random Drama Man » Fri Oct 31, 2003 4:34 pm

Buddhism in general is very philosophical. In fact there are those who argue that Buddhims is a philosophy and not a religion. I don't agree, though, because philosophies generally only explain the workings of the universe without offering any way of relating to it.<br><br>To answer the question, Zen is Zen. You can try to describe it, but ultimately the only way to understand it is through personal experience.


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