Something isn't right....

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Re: Something isn't right....

Postby osprey » Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:40 pm

I'm not afraid of them in the sense of personal safety, rather I'm afraid of the hate, prejudice, and spread of ignorance that the movement has caused. When the rather conservative health reform bill passed congressman were targeted in violent ways, with bricks, a bullet, and an envelope with white powder and a death threat letter. To say that the movement doesn't endorse this kind of thing is simply talk. The movement's leading personalities may see this as a peaceful protest, but in practice the Tea Party is about as peaceful as a white Black Panther movement.

In regards to Tom's comment on Obama's dictatorship, that could not be further from the truth. A dictator needs to be a strong leader, Obama has unfortunately been a rather unagressive and ineffective president, to call him a dictator when he cannot even deal with a congressional minority is laughable. Considering Democrats have been the majority for a couple decades now and havn't the balls to filibuster themselves (think that they are above that), its amusing that you feel he has been abusing his power. HE DOESN'T EVEN USE WHAT POWER HE HAS. He has tried desperately for "bipartisianship", which is an empty term because of a vocal minority. He was an idealist and has suffered for it and has failed the people who voted for him. He could have pulled a Teddy Rooselvelt and simply said, "Tough shit, the majority has spoken and I'm the President." (not exact quote :wink: ).

Angela, you make several good points concerning his bowing to conservative pressure.

Also, I had no clue Fritz had a whole bunch of pictures, does Fritz live near an area
Have you got any proof of this? I managed to prove the voter not only the voter intimidation but Obama's aiding and abetting in it. Not using his power? Then why force through a bad health care bill simply to make himself look like he was actually doing something? If you seriously believe he genuinely tried for "bipartisanship", aluminum siding salesman must love you.

As far as hate and prejudice are concerned, I see far more of that among Obama's supporters than among his opponents. 'Nuff said.
So you haven't noticed all the racial slurs directed towards him? Please show me some comments from his supporters that you find derogatory.

I wonder why they called it the Tea Party movement...Boston Tea Party reference possibly? That wasn't exactly a peaceful protest...fact is, the leaders may condemn it, but the movement itself is largely rooted in violence and racism.
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Re: Something isn't right....

Postby Muninn » Wed Apr 21, 2010 8:55 pm

I still stand by everything I have said. And I'm not the one who turned this into a pissing contest. It already was before I posted a thing.
If this were a pissing contest you must have been holding it in for a long time considering no one else has replied more than twice as of this post to your multiple posts.
I guess some people here weren't expecting to be pissed back upon.
I've noticed this said in many heated discussions, usually by people who're out to prove something. I think it's an intimidation tactic, as a pre-emptive warning in case people still feel the need to state their opinion. However I don't think before or even after this anyone had said anything inflammatory to warrant it. Certainly it seems like a response for harsher times. Did you take personal offense at what other people think?

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Re: Something isn't right....

Postby osprey » Wed Apr 21, 2010 9:59 pm

I don't feel I've pissed on anyone or been pissed on by anyone. I don't need to prove my worth in a forum argument.
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Re: Something isn't right....

Postby Comrade K » Wed Apr 21, 2010 10:04 pm

Have you got any proof of this? I managed to prove the voter not only the voter intimidation but Obama's aiding and abetting in it. Not using his power? Then why force through a bad health care bill simply to make himself look like he was actually doing something? If you seriously believe he genuinely tried for "bipartisanship", aluminum siding salesman must love you.


By forcing through a bad healthcare bill, he's still trying to prove he's doing what he said he'd do, even if it's been neutered. To not do it would probably have much more grave political consequences, and then the vultures out to demonize him would dive in and say "Look, he's not honest, he didn't try" or "Look, he gave up, he's weak." Angry right-wingers will find whatever little tidbits they can to pull him down, as Angela mentioned with the angry left-wingers and Bush.
As far as hate and prejudice are concerned, I see far more of that among Obama's supporters than among his opponents. 'Nuff said.
Sure, they can be prejudiced, and this 'Obama is the saviour of everthing!' nonsense really gets irritating, but honestly, where is the Obama supporters' parallel to the racism, sexism, religious intolerance and all the things we see coming from the more extreme Fox News Neo-Con right? I think the reason you've seen more 'hate' from his supporters is because you look for it in them, but not in your own camp.

Now I'm not a huge Obama supporter, though I preferred him to McCain, but what I really do loathe is bullshit, and many of the criticisms made against Obama tend to be just that, again, much like they were against Bush, as much as I disliked his presidency.
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Re: Something isn't right....

Postby Tom_Radigan » Wed Apr 21, 2010 10:42 pm

Have you got any proof of this? I managed to prove the voter not only the voter intimidation but Obama's aiding and abetting in it. Not using his power? Then why force through a bad health care bill simply to make himself look like he was actually doing something? If you seriously believe he genuinely tried for "bipartisanship", aluminum siding salesman must love you.


By forcing through a bad healthcare bill, he's still trying to prove he's doing what he said he'd do, even if it's been neutered. To not do it would probably have much more grave political consequences, and then the vultures out to demonize him would dive in and say "Look, he's not honest, he didn't try" or "Look, he gave up, he's weak." Angry right-wingers will find whatever little tidbits they can to pull him down, as Angela mentioned with the angry left-wingers and Bush.
As far as hate and prejudice are concerned, I see far more of that among Obama's supporters than among his opponents. 'Nuff said.
Sure, they can be prejudiced, and this 'Obama is the saviour of everthing!' nonsense really gets irritating, but honestly, where is the Obama supporters' parallel to the racism, sexism, religious intolerance and all the things we see coming from the more extreme Fox News Neo-Con right? I think the reason you've seen more 'hate' from his supporters is because you look for it in them, but not in your own camp.

Now I'm not a huge Obama supporter, though I preferred him to McCain, but what I really do loathe is bullshit, and many of the criticisms made against Obama tend to be just that, again, much like they were against Bush, as much as I disliked his presidency.
You heard maybe of Jeremiah Wright?

As for the health bill, the objection is not that it's too little so much as too expensive without the benefit. Obama already has a rightly-deserved reputation of spending tax money like a drunken sailor. That's what the revolt is all about. And there may be some bigots among the Tea Party people, but despite all the claims (some of which have been definitely discredited). most Tea Party people are ordinary taxpayers who are angry at a President who acts like the people don't matter.

Yes, he had a lot of popular support at the beginning. Look at how it's dropped like a stone since then. He may not act like a dictator, but he certainly acts like he doesn't know what he's doing. We would have been infinitely better off with McCain, or even a third term for George Bush.

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Re: Something isn't right....

Postby Bocaj Claw » Thu Apr 22, 2010 12:04 am

For clarification, how was the health care bill forced through? I know they used reconciliation but isn't that a proper congressional procedure?
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Re: Something isn't right....

Postby osprey » Thu Apr 22, 2010 12:31 am

Obama does spend money, fair enough. However, Bush spent a pretty penny himself; $1.3 trillion in debt was accumulated over the course of his term, and much of it was spent overseas. Yes, maybe Obama's stimulus plan was a little reckless, but hey, something had to be done to avoid the second great depression. It may not have been the best thought-through plan, but guaranteed if he hadn't put the plan in motion, he would be getting attacked by Conservative supporters just as rampantly for not doing anything.

You say that Obama does less for the people than Bush, but this isn't true at all. Most of the big issues the Tea Party is complaining about involve Obama attempting to help the people. The economic stimulus plan was intended to help the people and avoid an extreme depression in the economy, which would undoubtedly have caused a lot of grief to people from all walks of life in the States. And health care reform? It's worth it, trust me...you may fight it now, but when a large hospital bill lands in your lap that wouldn't have been covered by your insurance, you'll support it, trust me. I find it funny that for years Americans have been complaining about the prices of medication, and attempting to get access to cheap Canadian medicine illicitly, and yet when a system is proposed that will make American healthcare very similar to that of Canada, it's so vehemnently fought against.

Best to wait and see how health care reform is working for you in a few years. It will ultimately save you money, and I say this as someone who's lived with such a system all my life. Any system needs time to get going...and those who fought against it are either very wealthy, or very uninformed about what health care reform is, in my opinion.
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Re: Something isn't right....

Postby Æron » Thu Apr 22, 2010 2:37 am

You heard maybe of Jeremiah Wright?
And Jeremiah Wright has SO MANY followers amongst Obama supporters! I mean, look at the huge movement rallying around him and the cause of sticking it to White America! The rallies are happening all over the place, carrying signs saying "God Damn America" and "Whites=Half-Breed Niggars" and calling for the deporting of Republican Senators back to Europe because they aren't really American citizens. Hell, some of them are even showing up protests with guns and calling for the assassination of white conservative leaders. One of them even flew a small plane loaded with fuel barrels into an American Family Association office building! And Jeremiah Wright is SO HATEFUL. I mean, how dare he point out that America may be at fault for anything?

....

Seriously though, your proof of the amount of hate coming from Obama supporters is equal to or greater than that coming from the "Tea Party" is one guy who hardly anyone cares about or listens to, who only became an issue in the first place is because ABC News (part of the supposedly "liberal media") went digging for a controversy to stir up during the election? And WHO are the racists you're talking about that you think will be voted out of office this November?

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Re: Something isn't right....

Postby likeafox » Thu Apr 22, 2010 3:38 am

You heard maybe of Jeremiah Wright?
No. I rest my case.

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Re: Something isn't right....

Postby Æron » Thu Apr 22, 2010 3:41 am

I think Jason just one-upped me with five words. :shock:
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Re: Something isn't right....

Postby Tom_Radigan » Thu Apr 22, 2010 4:16 am

Obama does spend money, fair enough. However, Bush spent a pretty penny himself; $1.3 trillion in debt was accumulated over the course of his term, and much of it was spent overseas. Yes, maybe Obama's stimulus plan was a little reckless, but hey, something had to be done to avoid the second great depression. It may not have been the best thought-through plan, but guaranteed if he hadn't put the plan in motion, he would be getting attacked by Conservative supporters just as rampantly for not doing anything.

You say that Obama does less for the people than Bush, but this isn't true at all. Most of the big issues the Tea Party is complaining about involve Obama attempting to help the people. The economic stimulus plan was intended to help the people and avoid an extreme depression in the economy, which would undoubtedly have caused a lot of grief to people from all walks of life in the States. And health care reform? It's worth it, trust me...you may fight it now, but when a large hospital bill lands in your lap that wouldn't have been covered by your insurance, you'll support it, trust me. I find it funny that for years Americans have been complaining about the prices of medication, and attempting to get access to cheap Canadian medicine illicitly, and yet when a system is proposed that will make American healthcare very similar to that of Canada, it's so vehemnently fought against.

Best to wait and see how health care reform is working for you in a few years. It will ultimately save you money, and I say this as someone who's lived with such a system all my life. Any system needs time to get going...and those who fought against it are either very wealthy, or very uninformed about what health care reform is, in my opinion.
Bush was an overspender too-on liberal social programs, believe it or not. You thought he was conservative? Guess who wrote the "No Child Left Behind" Act? That paragon of conservatism...Ted Kennedy! But the truth is that Obama is spending far, far more-and where is the money going? Is it to actually stimulate the economy or as pork barrel bribery to certain constituents? In case you weren't aware, the Republicans have been voted out in the past several years for abandoning their old principles.

Health care: First off, the USA is not Canada. They may look similar but there are many political and economic and cultural differences. You seem to have blind faith that a national health care service is a panacea. It isn't. This issue has been talked about on other forums I visit. Britain has a national health care system too...and it's not so highly rated by the people who use it. And if it's going to save money, why aren't the Republicans convinced? And no, the claim "The Republicans don't want to give Obama a victory is hogwash. If you're so convinced the health care bill is going to save money, find proof of it. Charles Krauthammer, a newspaper columinst who used to be a doctor and is quite familiar with the health care system in this country, says what passed will cost a lot more both in the short and long term. Unless you know specifically what the bill says, or have heard from people who are familiar with this bill, I wouldn't recommend you comment on it.

And BTW, the news is that taxes are about to go up quite a bit, though presumably after the elections. Tea Party movement or no Tea Party movement, there's going to be hell to pay come election time for the incumbents.

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Re: Something isn't right....

Postby Tom_Radigan » Thu Apr 22, 2010 4:30 am

You heard maybe of Jeremiah Wright?
And Jeremiah Wright has SO MANY followers amongst Obama supporters! I mean, look at the huge movement rallying around him and the cause of sticking it to White America! The rallies are happening all over the place, carrying signs saying "God Damn America" and "Whites=Half-Breed Niggars" and calling for the deporting of Republican Senators back to Europe because they aren't really American citizens. Hell, some of them are even showing up protests with guns and calling for the assassination of white conservative leaders. One of them even flew a small plane loaded with fuel barrels into an American Family Association office building! And Jeremiah Wright is SO HATEFUL. I mean, how dare he point out that America may be at fault for anything?

....

Seriously though, your proof of the amount of hate coming from Obama supporters is equal to or greater than that coming from the "Tea Party" is one guy who hardly anyone cares about or listens to, who only became an issue in the first place is because ABC News (part of the supposedly "liberal media") went digging for a controversy to stir up during the election? And WHO are the racists you're talking about that you think will be voted out of office this November?

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Yes, Jeremiah Wright isn't hateful. And Adolf Hitler was not a Nazi:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremiah_Wright

The liberal media actually glossed over this fact. Obama may not be a racist, but he is an opportunist. And for the record, the news media is known to be selective as to what it covers. Fox News is no worse than the rest of them.

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Re: Something isn't right....

Postby osprey » Thu Apr 22, 2010 5:42 am

Some reading for Tom. And take note that this was written in 2007, far before the issue of health care reform came up.

It's been clear to me all along, and was just made clearer by Tom's reply to me that this is not so much a protest against the policies of government as it is simply a protest of who is in government. There is no perfect candidate for everybody. And sadly, it seems many of the hardcore republicans harbor values that aren't shared by the greater majority of Americans. Someone's going to be upset, obviously, nobody is going to be happy all the time. However, it seems to me to be more of a stab at the fact that the Democrats are in office, rather than the Republicans...as much as the liberals of America took some possibly unfair stabs at Bush simply because it was Bush.

The Republicans don't have to agree with the reform bill for it to save money. The basis of a public healthcare system is that everyone has access to healthcare, and that more money is available specifically for health care, freeing up other tax money for other things. If you'll refer to the link above, you'll see that a bit of extra money for healthcare may not be such a bad idea. It certainly will help the average American who has an unexpected accident that could cost them tens of thousands of dollars now, but wouldn't cost them more than five thousand under healthcare reform. Give the system time to get operational before you form your opinion, just wait and see how it goes. It's no secret Republicans are largely behind big business, and this includes insurance companies...this could be a bit of an explanation for some of the Republican resistence.

If you really care about your country and your community, you shouldn't have a problem paying a little more in taxes to keep it functioning well and keep your fellow Americans healthy. Now, I know the response here is going to be that the extra money is simply going to be recklessly spent and not go to healthcare, but this is another place where time is a factor. We'll have to wait and see how it goes.
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Re: Something isn't right....

Postby Æron » Thu Apr 22, 2010 5:54 am

The liberal media actually glossed over this fact.
1. I doubt that. My memory may be bad, but I seem to remember a minor media shitstorm over the Jeremiah Wright thing.

2. And you seem quite eager to gloss over the existence of the Tea Party's more detestable members, though. Is that why you didn't comment on anything else in my post?

3. I'm not sure which "fact" you're talking about in the first place, all you did is link an biography page on wikipedia about Jeremiah Wright.
Obama may not be a racist, but he is an opportunist.
What are you referring to specifically in this case that makes you say he is an opportunist? I say of course he's an opportunist, he's a bloody politician.
Fox News is no worse than the rest of them.
I call BS. They're all bad to varying degrees and are pretty much all lacking in substance and integrity, but Fox News is the worst offender by far. (offhand note: But eh, I don't really care about American news anymore. The BBC is probably best of the big journalism outlets, actually having some degree of journalistic integrity and informational reporting.)
Bush was an overspender too-on liberal social programs, believe it or not. You thought he was conservative? Guess who wrote the "No Child Left Behind" Act? That paragon of conservatism...Ted Kennedy!
And the recently passed "socialist" healthcare bill which the Republicans hate so much? It seems to have a lot in common with one proposed by someone named Mitt Romney. Funny old world, isn't it? The differences between Republicans and Democrats is not as black and white as their campaign advisors would want us to believe.
Bush was an overspender too-on liberal social programs
Don't forget the farce war that cost more than a trillion dollars. Oh, and 100,000 Iraqi civilian lives, by some of the more conservative estimates. Americans seem to care more about the number preceded by the $, though. (I'm not talking directly to you, here.)
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Re: Something isn't right....

Postby Tom_Radigan » Thu Apr 22, 2010 11:26 am

Some reading for Tom. And take note that this was written in 2007, far before the issue of health care reform came up.

It's been clear to me all along, and was just made clearer by Tom's reply to me that this is not so much a protest against the policies of government as it is simply a protest of who is in government. There is no perfect candidate for everybody. And sadly, it seems many of the hardcore republicans harbor values that aren't shared by the greater majority of Americans. Someone's going to be upset, obviously, nobody is going to be happy all the time. However, it seems to me to be more of a stab at the fact that the Democrats are in office, rather than the Republicans...as much as the liberals of America took some possibly unfair stabs at Bush simply because it was Bush.

The Republicans don't have to agree with the reform bill for it to save money. The basis of a public healthcare system is that everyone has access to healthcare, and that more money is available specifically for health care, freeing up other tax money for other things. If you'll refer to the link above, you'll see that a bit of extra money for healthcare may not be such a bad idea. It certainly will help the average American who has an unexpected accident that could cost them tens of thousands of dollars now, but wouldn't cost them more than five thousand under healthcare reform. Give the system time to get operational before you form your opinion, just wait and see how it goes. It's no secret Republicans are largely behind big business, and this includes insurance companies...this could be a bit of an explanation for some of the Republican resistence.

If you really care about your country and your community, you shouldn't have a problem paying a little more in taxes to keep it functioning well and keep your fellow Americans healthy. Now, I know the response here is going to be that the extra money is simply going to be recklessly spent and not go to healthcare, but this is another place where time is a factor. We'll have to wait and see how it goes.
Like I said, you seem to have blind faith, and your response bears this out. I live in Illinois and am not prone to believe in lofty promises. In Illinois years ago, the state lotteries were established (and later legalized gambling) with the idea that those would solve the state's financial problems and more money would be put into education. The truth. More money was NOT, repeat NOT put into education, and the state is in a dire financial crisis no politician in the state will deny. And you wocharge that I don't believe Obama because of who he is. Well, you're right. Most of us residents of Illinois view our politicians as a den of rats(from both parties mind you), and yet you somehow think Obama is magically an exception who's quite different from the others. Only the uninformed or incredibly stupid would believe that. Obama has no credibility value with me. So no, I think that to "wait a few years" will only prove me absolutely right.


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