Something isn't right....

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Tom_Radigan
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Re: Something isn't right....

Postby Tom_Radigan » Sun Apr 25, 2010 12:39 pm

Giving money to the rich, or not taking it away from them? There is a difference.

And BTW, how many of you have paid income taxes and filled out 1040 forms? (For USA residents only.) Did you know that the income tax was passed in 1913 as a "soak the rich" tax, and even nowadays the top income earners in the USA pay a good chunk of total income tax revenue. Yet most of the rest of us still have to pay a third of our incomes to Uncle Sam.

As for the rich...where do you think jobs come from? Somebody has to own the factories, farms, office buildings, etc. Capital isn't cheap, and there are only so many low-capital positions out there.

Support programs for the poor? If they want out of poverty, there is no substitute for jobs.

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Re: Something isn't right....

Postby osprey » Sun Apr 25, 2010 3:00 pm

The problem is the jobs that poor people usually get are low-paying, minumum wage jobs that don't pay nearly enough for them to get by. You assume all poor people don't work, which couldn't be farther from the truth. As someone who's lived below the poverty line for most of my life, I can vouch for this; I have worked hard all my life, but still never made enough to stop living paycheck to paycheck.
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Re: Something isn't right....

Postby Tom_Radigan » Sun Apr 25, 2010 9:32 pm

The problem is the jobs that poor people usually get are low-paying, minumum wage jobs that don't pay nearly enough for them to get by. You assume all poor people don't work, which couldn't be farther from the truth. As someone who's lived below the poverty line for most of my life, I can vouch for this; I have worked hard all my life, but still never made enough to stop living paycheck to paycheck.
Oh, I don't assume that. I personally have known some poor people, and know that some but not all of them can advance in the world. Even so, no government or economic system is going to be able to provide everyone with all their necessities.

If you ever heard of Ursula LeGuin's novel The Dispossessed, you might want to read it if you haven't. I was assigned it in a college sociology class. It's about how a group of anarchists leave a world like ours to go to another planet to form an agrarian communal society where there are no possessions and everyone is supposed to cooperate to keep going. When one member of this world comes to visit the home world, he is asked, "And noone starves?" His reply, "Noone starves while another eats." I don't think you'd consider the way of life on that world better than what you have now.

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osprey
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Re: Something isn't right....

Postby osprey » Sun Apr 25, 2010 10:38 pm

I would actually greatly prefer that sort of society over the greed-filled, unequal, corrupt capitalist society I currently live in.
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Re: Something isn't right....

Postby Tom_Radigan » Sun Apr 25, 2010 11:16 pm

I would actually greatly prefer that sort of society over the greed-filled, unequal, corrupt capitalist society I currently live in.
Then you'd love North Korea. :wink:

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Re: Something isn't right....

Postby Æron » Sun Apr 25, 2010 11:49 pm

Uhhh, you mean North Korea the authoritarian, corrupt, unequal (ruling class vs underclass) police state-dictatorship?

To associate North Korea with western democratic liberal socialism (something I would call Denmark, for example) is a completely unfair strawman.
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Re: Something isn't right....

Postby Arloest » Mon Apr 26, 2010 12:22 am

North Korea is basically the opposite of an anarchist dream world.
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Who sleeps shall awake, looking through the window of our lives
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So that we may someday understand...

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Re: Something isn't right....

Postby Comrade K » Mon Apr 26, 2010 1:12 am

I would actually greatly prefer that sort of society over the greed-filled, unequal, corrupt capitalist society I currently live in.
Then you'd love North Korea. :wink:
Hey there, do like capitalism? Then you'll love Augusto Pinochet! Located in lovely Chile!


Acting like the extremely varied forms of anarchist and socialist and social democratic systems are represented by North Korea is basically the same as saying Capitalism is always like it is under Pinochet.
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Re: Something isn't right....

Postby likeafox » Mon Apr 26, 2010 1:13 am

Guys, I think Tom meant that to be tongue-in-cheek, as a way of saying "You think you have it bad HERE, well...", to which he has a point. The capitalistic divide between the social classes could be much greater than it currently is, and we should feel lucky to live in the kind of nation that we do.
(edit: I posted a mere moment after Comrade so this isn't directed towards him too, though I suppose it still applies)

Also, I can understand the complaining over the healthcare bill. The republicans didn't want it and it's no longer what the democrats wanted either. But that doesn't mean it's a bad thing. People should try to look on it with a fresh mind. It's going to cost a lot of money, but it's also going to raise the baseline quality of life. That will have a great effect on the most neglected parts of America. It's a step in the right direction, imo.

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Re: Something isn't right....

Postby Caoimhin » Mon Apr 26, 2010 3:02 am

OK, I confess I misjudged many of you. I see you're not the blind Obama worshippers I thought you were. So many of his supporters, at least the the outset, seemed to view him as God and would fix all our nations problems.

Of course, as everyone hopefully knows by now, at best he's just another politician. As far as political commentators go, the one I mentioned before was Charles Krauthammer, who as far as I know was the only one who actually read the new health care bill and understood its costs and effects. The others are just entertainers.

Trickle-down economics really works, even though it's politically incorrect to admit it. The economy propsered under Reagan, after the horrible mess HE inherited-far worse than the one Obama did. (Yes I remember it well.) It worked under Clinton, even if he didn't use the name. Yes, there was poverty under Reagan, but there was that before and after him too-the news media simply ignored it. It was none other than Patrick Buchanan who said while Clinton was President that there was still poverty. But most everyone else were saying how great things were.

Okay, who is this Charles Krautmhammer I keep referring to? Here:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 01690.html
1. While it was nice of you to apologize for thinking that we were ignorant Obama worshippers, I honestly had no clue that you were treating us so. What exactly was your goal? Could you have at least assumed that a few good things to say about Obama's presidency does not equal blind worship? I may criticize (and yes loath) the Tea Party movement, but that does not mean I'm abosolutely for their opposition either (although that wording implies more neutrality on my part than I'd like).

2. I mentioned my list of pundits sarcasticly. A commentator is simply someone who offers their views or opinions on any subject, they analyze and then present. While many commentators may be very informed, they are not the ones to be looking for the final word on anything. My point was that other than my personal preference for Stewart and Colbert, I take them no more seriously than Beck.

3. I'm not entirely sure why you would mention your political correctness when stating your opinion on trick-down-economics. Please don't sugar-coat what you say.
Yes growth for companies help people get jobs, get paid, and our economy grow. What you forget is that a company is a non-person entity, CEO's don't need bonuses, or even their insane salary, for it to grow. Infact that money, given as bonuses, could simply be used to improve the company in anyway it has to. By the logic the bonuses work on, everybody should get a raise in their pay all at once, supposedly growth is good right? What makes the CEO's any better than the 24/5 workers?
How can you justify what they do as more work intensive? Of course to even play with the idea that harder work equals better pay is naive. But, honestly, tell me how you can have "excess" profit? Hell, they could get shiny new wastebaskets for all the companies branches with that money, if so inclined. That money used for bonuses can be put to better use by investing it into the company itself, not as stocks, but actual progress.

4.Why exactly do you feel the need to state the obvious? Poverty is going to exist, to criticize an adminstration because of the mere existence of poverty is a ludicrous argument. Why in the world would the media wastetime by saying, "Breaking news! Poverty still exists!". Honestly, I'm getting sick of this Reagan vs. Clinton vs. Bush talk, its 2010, people need to talk about things more present, dwelling on these past administrations isn't helping anyone.

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Re: Something isn't right....

Postby Tom_Radigan » Mon Apr 26, 2010 3:07 am

Guys, I think Tom meant that to be tongue-in-cheek, as a way of saying "You think you have it bad HERE, well...", to which he has a point. The capitalistic divide between the social classes could be much greater than it currently is, and we should feel lucky to live in the kind of nation that we do.
(edit: I posted a mere moment after Comrade so this isn't directed towards him too, though I suppose it still applies)

Also, I can understand the complaining over the healthcare bill. The republicans didn't want it and it's no longer what the democrats wanted either. But that doesn't mean it's a bad thing. People should try to look on it with a fresh mind. It's going to cost a lot of money, but it's also going to raise the baseline quality of life. That will have a great effect on the most neglected parts of America. It's a step in the right direction, imo.
You're assuming the health care bill is actually going to actually do that. Ever heard of the law of unintended consequences? I mentioned before that my home state of Illinois legalized gambling as a way of bringing in more revenue. It not only didn't, but our state is in a much worse financial condition than before. Why do you think I don't buy the idea that the health care bill is going to make things better? You're talking to someone who's heard it all before.

Any of you familiar with George Orwell? He hated capitalism and the rich (having had to deal with rich jerks in his life) and was a socialist. However, by the end of his life when he wrote 1984, he had become disillusioned with socialism as well. Ostensibly it brings equality and justice; in reality, it brings oppression and poverty. Denmark is not a socialist country; it may have more government programs, but it is actually capitalist. Socialism means letting the government control everything. It invariably results in tyranny and mass poverty, except for the ruling elite.

The United States did have a form of socialism in parts of the country, where freedoms were exchanged for the provisoin of all ones food and housing needs. It was called slavery.

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Re: Something isn't right....

Postby Caoimhin » Mon Apr 26, 2010 3:15 am

Guys, I think Tom meant that to be tongue-in-cheek, as a way of saying "You think you have it bad HERE, well...", to which he has a point. The capitalistic divide between the social classes could be much greater than it currently is, and we should feel lucky to live in the kind of nation that we do.
(edit: I posted a mere moment after Comrade so this isn't directed towards him too, though I suppose it still applies)

Also, I can understand the complaining over the healthcare bill. The republicans didn't want it and it's no longer what the democrats wanted either. But that doesn't mean it's a bad thing. People should try to look on it with a fresh mind. It's going to cost a lot of money, but it's also going to raise the baseline quality of life. That will have a great effect on the most neglected parts of America. It's a step in the right direction, imo.
You're assuming the health care bill is actually going to actually do that. Ever heard of the law of unintended consequences? I mentioned before that my home state of Illinois legalized gambling as a way of bringing in more revenue. It not only didn't, but our state is in a much worse financial condition than before. Why do you think I don't buy the idea that the health care bill is going to make things better? You're talking to someone who's heard it all before.

Any of you familiar with George Orwell? He hated capitalism and the rich (having had to deal with rich jerks in his life) and was a socialist. However, by the end of his life when he wrote 1984, he had become disillusioned with socialism as well. Ostensibly it brings equality and justice; in reality, it brings oppression and poverty. Denmark is not a socialist country; it may have more government programs, but it is actually capitalist. Socialism means letting the government control everything. It invariably results in tyranny and mass poverty, except for the ruling elite.

The United States did have a form of socialism in parts of the country, where freedoms were exchanged for the provisoin of all ones food and housing needs. It was called slavery.
You've confused economics with government, congratulations... So you've proven that Orwell hated capitalism and then disliked socialism, I'm not sure about the subtext there, or rather the intent of that argument.

Slaves never got Medicare, Medicaid, or Social Security. They're all socialist programs Uncle Tom :wink: .

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Re: Something isn't right....

Postby Tom_Radigan » Mon Apr 26, 2010 3:25 am

To Caomhin:

Being a part of some other boards (not webcomic-related), I have actually met people who really are blind Obama-worshippers, and who take certain people and websites more seriously than they should. I see the people like that aren't here like I originally thought.

As for trickle-down economics, it does really work. I remember people were denying that Reagan's economic policies were failing ("Oh, we're not REALLY prospering!") when they clearly worked. Of course the same thing happened when Clinton was in office, but the people who were bashing Reagan were saying that we were in Utopia because of Clinton. Never mind that Clinton had absolutely nothing to do with the prosperity of the 1990's. Why dwell on the past? It is still relevant, like it or not. As for Obama, he may have done a few good things, but I'm still not convinced this health care bill is a step in the right direction after all. I think the people who say that don't have any idea what's in it.

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Caoimhin
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Re: Something isn't right....

Postby Caoimhin » Mon Apr 26, 2010 3:36 am

I'm perfectly aware that the past is relevant. But if you dwell too much you can never move forward. I'm curious to see if you have any arguments other than the tired Reagan vs. Whoever. I don't care how "prosperous" it was in their day, I'd like to know what our present and our future is going to be like. What is said is done, Reagan is dead, Clinton is no longer the president, and neither is Bush; it honestly seems as if you're presenting them in some kind of pissing contest. Also how old are you? And why should we take your word for events that unfolded before some of our births? If someone here would all of a sudden take your side, would you accuse them of blind faith?

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Re: Something isn't right....

Postby Tom_Radigan » Mon Apr 26, 2010 3:40 am

Guys, I think Tom meant that to be tongue-in-cheek, as a way of saying "You think you have it bad HERE, well...", to which he has a point. The capitalistic divide between the social classes could be much greater than it currently is, and we should feel lucky to live in the kind of nation that we do.
(edit: I posted a mere moment after Comrade so this isn't directed towards him too, though I suppose it still applies)

Also, I can understand the complaining over the healthcare bill. The republicans didn't want it and it's no longer what the democrats wanted either. But that doesn't mean it's a bad thing. People should try to look on it with a fresh mind. It's going to cost a lot of money, but it's also going to raise the baseline quality of life. That will have a great effect on the most neglected parts of America. It's a step in the right direction, imo.
You're assuming the health care bill is actually going to actually do that. Ever heard of the law of unintended consequences? I mentioned before that my home state of Illinois legalized gambling as a way of bringing in more revenue. It not only didn't, but our state is in a much worse financial condition than before. Why do you think I don't buy the idea that the health care bill is going to make things better? You're talking to someone who's heard it all before.

Any of you familiar with George Orwell? He hated capitalism and the rich (having had to deal with rich jerks in his life) and was a socialist. However, by the end of his life when he wrote 1984, he had become disillusioned with socialism as well. Ostensibly it brings equality and justice; in reality, it brings oppression and poverty. Denmark is not a socialist country; it may have more government programs, but it is actually capitalist. Socialism means letting the government control everything. It invariably results in tyranny and mass poverty, except for the ruling elite.

The United States did have a form of socialism in parts of the country, where freedoms were exchanged for the provisoin of all ones food and housing needs. It was called slavery.
You've confused economics with government, congratulations... So you've proven that Orwell hated capitalism and then disliked socialism, I'm not sure about the subtext there, or rather the intent of that argument.

Slaves never got Medicare, Medicaid, or Social Security. They're all socialist programs Uncle Tom :wink: .

Socialism is by definition where the government controls all aspects of the economy. You work for the government, and the government pays you. (And as for slavery, the slaves got free food and housing and medical care. Also, the elderly and children who were too young to work had to be cared for. This was actually one argument against slavery put forth in pre-Civil War times.) BTW, no Communist nation ever called itself by that name. They called themselves either "Socialist" or "Democratic People's Republic". The world's first Communist nation was known as the "Union of Soviet Socialist Republics".

George Orwell and other early Socialists and Communists came to realize that these newfangled economic systems were not bringing equality and freedom to oppressed workers and farmers-they were doing the opposite.


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