RocketGirl: Animator

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RocketGirl
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Postby RocketGirl » Mon Jan 26, 2009 2:43 am

but my point is that Comrade implied that you had evidence [albeit, not DEFINITIVE evidence, but evidence pointed to it being alive] that the cat was alive
If it isn't definitive, then I would refrain from making a conclusion, and express an opinion of probability instead, with full acknowledgment of the potential that I may be wrong.

This is distinct--VERY distinct--from religious claims, which express certainty despite having insufficient data. That's the point; belief without sufficient cause is Not A Good Thing™.

Belief itself isn't a particularly good thing; research and investigation, verification, are.
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Postby Dr. Sticks » Mon Jan 26, 2009 2:48 am

there's nothing WRONG with belief (your defintion, not my and nickspoon's. that's important to prevent people from being annoying metaphysical philosophers), it's just stupid.
http://www.spingain.com/?ref=146518
Well put doog. You never posted anything offensive whatsoever
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Postby RocketGirl » Mon Jan 26, 2009 2:53 am

there's nothing WRONG with belief (your defintion, not my and nickspoon's. that's important to prevent people from being annoying metaphysical philosophers), it's just stupid.
And stupid isn't wrong? Stupid makes life worse for others when it comes with power or influence.

Personally, I'm of the opinion that stupid and/or incorrect ought to corrected, not just lived with.
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Postby Dr. Sticks » Mon Jan 26, 2009 2:56 am

but when it doesn't, when stupidity is harmless, it's harmless. I wouldn't attempt to persuade someone like Johnathan Segovia, for instance, who is a nice guy and doesn't do bad shit, who is a christian and isn't causing any harm by it, I wouldn't tell him that his faith is dumb and that he should only accept things with empirical evidence.

My point is that in day-to-day life, it doesn't make any sense to only believe things founded with definite, empirical evidence all the time.
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Well put doog. You never posted anything offensive whatsoever
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Postby Comrade K » Mon Jan 26, 2009 3:01 am

I'm not arguing God here, I think the discussion has progressed beyond that. No need to go into why religion is bad etc., I'm an Atheist too thanks, and I've heard it all before.

I'm simply saying that no matter why you came to a conclusion that was false, you did not know it to be true, you only believed it.

You stated yourself that knowing is an absolute.
Nickspoon could in fact be a robot AI or something. No matter how improbable that may be, you cannot know absolutely 100% for certain that it is not true, therefore you can only make an assumption, even if 99.99999999-% of the evidence points to it being false. You still don't know because knowing is absolute. I understand the point you're trying to make, I'm not arguing with everything you've said, merely with your assertion that evidence and experimentation can allow one to "know" anything, rather than believe it. If my statement that x is true has even an infinitesimal probability of being false, then that is a belief. And ultimately, there's at least an infinitesimal probability that everything I hold to be true is false, regardless of evidence, experimentation, methodology or what have you. Therefore I know nothing, and only believe. Believe with conviction based on evidence and scientific inquiry, but believe nonetheless, as all of human experience is subjective, including our observations of experimental data.
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Postby Dr. Sticks » Mon Jan 26, 2009 3:03 am

werd
http://www.spingain.com/?ref=146518
Well put doog. You never posted anything offensive whatsoever
we know she'll be back, like a good bitch should.

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Postby RocketGirl » Mon Jan 26, 2009 3:13 am

but when it doesn't, when stupidity is harmless, it's harmless.
Stupidity is never harmless, even if the only victim is the person behaving stupidly.
I wouldn't attempt to persuade someone like Johnathan Segovia, for instance, who is a nice guy and doesn't do bad shit, who is a christian and isn't causing any harm by it, I wouldn't tell him that his faith is dumb and that he should only accept things with empirical evidence.
Then that is a difference between you and I.

Perhaps I might not use the word 'dumb'; 'unfounded' is much better. But the fact is that decisions get made while under the impression that false things are true, and that has repercussions.

There is no way to soften the blow of the word 'ignorance'; there's simply too much emotional baggage attached to that word.
And yet, it's the only one that applies here; religious faith is willful ignorance by definition, and refusing to take a stand against it--especially when it DOES affect one's own life, even if one has rejected it, by virtue of the behavior of others towards oneself--is simply unconscionable.
Right now, my life is made palpably worse by people who make truth assertions and political decisions based on faith; the term "faith-based initiative" ought to ring a bell or two.

And to quote Sam Harris, no society has ever suffered because its population became too reasonable; the combination of skeptical inquiry and reason is A Good Thing™...faith is not. That anyone could argue otherwise is, frankly, incomprehensible to me.
My point is that in day-to-day life, it doesn't make any sense to only believe things founded with definite, empirical evidence all the time.
There is a huge difference between taking an intuitive leap or a risk, and positively asserting--even basing one's entire life on the idea--that something is true despite insufficient evidence.
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Postby Dr. Sticks » Mon Jan 26, 2009 3:15 am

I would rather have friends, than lose friends over something so unimportant as religion. I think that "doing unto others" still applies to non-theists such as ourselves.

But, now that I have figured out exactly where you stand on the issue, I don't have to argue anymore (and I think that most of my poorly worded arguments from the other day still stand)
http://www.spingain.com/?ref=146518
Well put doog. You never posted anything offensive whatsoever
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Postby RocketGirl » Mon Jan 26, 2009 3:17 am

You stated yourself that knowing is an absolute.
I did no such thing; I actually stated the exact opposite, that knowing absolutely is, in fact, impossible.

HOWEVER, I also stated that belief is not necessary when you have facts at your command. You don't have to believe in gravity because you can demonstrate its effects; belief is not required.

Nickspoon could in fact be a robot AI or something. No matter how improbable that may be, you cannot know absolutely 100% for certain that it is not true, therefore you can only make an assumption, even if 99.99999999-% of the evidence points to it being false.[/quote]

What, are you just reading the first line of my posts? I said exactly this.

I also said that I'm arguing for a very specific definition of belief, which states quite clearly:

"confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof"

You are arguing the case for a different definition of belief, and talking right past me.
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Postby RocketGirl » Mon Jan 26, 2009 3:27 am

I would rather have friends, than lose friends over something so unimportant as religion.
I have plenty of friends.

And to characterize religion as unimportant is, frankly, folly. Religion is anything BUT unimportant; it pervades and affects our lives whether we want it to or not.

Do you think there'd be suicide bombers if they didn't believe they'd be fast-tracked to paradise, if they believed that this life is the only one they'll ever get? Do you think abortion and gay marriage would be such bitter fights if one side didn't have rabid and screaming faith on their side? Have you seen the huge deal some people are making over christmas lately, and the equal time people are grabbing for for their own winter holiday?

Like it or hate it, religion is anything BUT unimportant.
I think that "doing unto others" still applies to non-theists such as ourselves.
Do you think for even a moment that I'd be as fired up about this issue if religious types were actually following that rule?

Or maybe they are...but a big problem with it is that it's "do unto others as you would have them do unto you"; it ought to be "do unto others as they would do unto themselves".
There'z a very good chance that I don't want to be treated the same way you do and vice versa; neither of us gets what we want if we follow the Golden Rule because our priorities are wildly different.

Either way, I'm definitely not being treated as I'd like to be by religious folks; if I were, perhaps I could see their practices as a novelty, like astrology or tarot. But religion affects politics, has an adverse affect on my life, and I'm simply not okay with that, not least of which because the case for religion's truth can't be empirically made.
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Postby Segovia » Mon Jan 26, 2009 3:35 am

you, Dr. Sticks and Comrade K are getting annoying.

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Postby Dr. Sticks » Mon Jan 26, 2009 3:36 am

meh, I'm done Johnathan. I've gathered my empirical evidence and returned to my home in the center of the empire, with my empress Carolina Jervis
Last edited by Dr. Sticks on Mon Jan 26, 2009 3:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
http://www.spingain.com/?ref=146518
Well put doog. You never posted anything offensive whatsoever
we know she'll be back, like a good bitch should.

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Postby Segovia » Mon Jan 26, 2009 3:37 am

good.

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Postby Arloest » Mon Jan 26, 2009 3:43 am

I've allowed this debate to continue because it's a pretty intelligent discussion and by no means inflammatory. If it annoys you, you don't have to read it. This is, after all, RocketGirl's thread.
Who sleeps shall awake, greeting the shadows from the sun
Who sleeps shall awake, looking through the window of our lives
Waiting for the moment to arrive...
Show us the silence in the rise,
So that we may someday understand...

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Postby Comrade K » Mon Jan 26, 2009 3:52 am

I consider knowing to be absolute...pending contradictory data. But many people who claim to know things, really don't...because of their lack of data or experimentation to determine the veracity of their assertions.
Knowledge cannot simply be declared by fiat; it has to be earned.
This is where I take issue. Again, the "pending contradictory data." It's basically a statement that x is true based on current evidence. Because current evidence supports the assertion that x is true, we know x is true.

And then if contradictory data should suddenly appear by whatever means and prove that x is false, we now know x is false.

So, we knew something that was false. To know x is true when x is in fact false seems to be a paradox.

So now we're left with a void. Something that isn't belief as you define it, but also cannot be known for certain for reasons we've already discussed. So how do you define something that you think you know, but that happens to be false?
I was using "belief" as general term to refer to that gray area. What do you define it as?


EDIT: To clarify, I personally consider absolute knowledge and belief to border one another, so that you either have one or the other, and there is no in between. Basically, I want to know what your in between is.
you, Dr. Sticks and Comrade K are getting annoying.
Oh the irony.
Last edited by Comrade K on Mon Jan 26, 2009 3:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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